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Coolant Fill Up and Now a Possible Head Gasket Leak!

14K views 29 replies 4 participants last post by  nanuk 
#1 ·
I haven't had this car 3 months yet but still I keep coming across issues. I had no issues with the cooling system other than the coolant level light popping up when I accelerated hard. I assumed I was low on coolant.

After finally getting the correct coolant and forcing the cap off I probably overfilled the reservoir because seeing the water level through the plastic is never easy. I guesstimated where the level was and figured the excess would be released after it warmed up enough through that one hose. The car gave me no issues yesterday but today it did a lot more than dump coolant.

I currently deliver pizzas when I'm not in school and today started off like usual. I made a few deliveries all across the area and kept my eye on the coolant temperature just in case. By the time I made it to my 2nd to last house the car finally started dumping coolant. The temperature was still normal and things seemed fine as I made it back to the store. It was the last trip on the interstate that finally made it obvious that this wasn't going to stay a simple night.

I was only a few miles away from my destination when I noticed that it became exceedingly difficult to maintain the speed limit. I tried turning on the cruise control but it too would require downshifting to 3rd to get back up to speed. That's when the car began to run warm.

Luckily, I made it to the off ramp just as the gauge began to climb for the ceiling and the check engine light began flashing. Fortunately, I had already decided to first deliver the order to the chicken place just after the off ramp. The gauge had only been pegged for mere seconds before I quickly parked it.

The car wouldn't start back up and stayed very hot for about 30 minutes. I can hear fuel and the occasional spark but compression seems lost and I don't have a compression gauge to be certain. I'm about to try to ride my bike up to where it is and see if it improved when it cooled off. At least I'll push up back seat back up before anyone notices my amps but it's in a very lighted and open parking lot.
 
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#2 ·
The Malibu seems kaput but there was a trucker probably sleeping in his truck near my car and I didn't need anybody thinking I was breaking into my own car so I didn't get to check much.

I did forget to mention that while I was watching the engine cool down I think I heard the thermostat open and then water rushed and boiled before leaving the reservoir. Kind of an odd moment considering that the gauge was still pegged. I wouldn't be shocked if the thermostat was stuck because the cap was fairly dirty and sticky when I forced it off yesterday. I'm not sure why adding more coolant made an issue unless maybe because the last owner didn't use Dex-Cool?

Keep in mind that the car was only overheating for no more than 10 seconds.

I'm glad I should have roadside assistance so getting the car towed to a shop and having it properly diagnosed may be an option.
 
#4 ·
I talk to myself all of the time so this isn't new to me.

The parts came in yesterday and I've been too busy and exhausted to have already taken it all apart already. Today, I made some progress but it came at no surprise to me that I cannot follow the steps that I find in the Chilton's manual and some steps could be left out altogether if some others aren't missing as well. For instance there is no removing the EGR tube from the exhaust manifold while everything else is in place and unless it's in the way of the heat shield I see no reason to remove it completely. The last time I did that the EGR tube adapter had its threads stripped nearly flat. So, I've only gotten as far as removing the upper intake manifold and alternator but I'm doing my best to use templates to keep track of all bolts and most nuts.

Thanks to the wind I had to decide to keep the fresh engine oil in the pan. It's bad enough half of the small amount of nasty coolant remaining missed the drip pan completely. Unless the state of the gasket says otherwise it looks like the coolant was only exposed to exhaust gases until it perhaps blew open completely. Last time I checked there still wasn't any coolant in the oil but then again that coolant was pretty gnarly. I did find some on the upper intake manifold gasket though.
 
#5 ·
If ya took any pics, post 'em!

If ya didn't, why not? ;)
 
#6 ·
appreciate your struggle in life and with your malibu!!

before taking the heads apart just think about that

if you aren't see vapour or steam come out from the tail pipe so no coolant boiled inside the cylinders and exhausted then your head gasket is good

if there is no oil mixed with coolant that says your LIM and head gasket are good

all overheating seen the same way from the cockpit pointer exceeds the middle up to the end of range to the red reason could be

cooling system not functioning effectively (clogged radiator, stuck thermostat, weak water pump, reservoir cap, leaks and air in the cooling system) water pump and radiator ...etc all these parts are available and cheap also some radiator shops has circulating pumps which can flushing the cooling system completely.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Thank you for the kind words!

Not only am I beyond the point of no return but the exhaust gases blowing through the cooling system and the possible oil in the coolant indicated a blown head gasket.

If ya took any pics, post 'em!

If ya didn't, why not? ;)
Because Photobucket should rename itself popupadsthattrytohackyourpcbucket. I better go ahead and post this and then add each picture one at a time because for all I know clicking back over to the Photobucket tab will cause it to happen again. :rolleyes:





This I suppose would be the before picture.

 
#8 ·
Wow, not cool when a website does that to ya!

My '97 Grand Prix had the 3.1 and it sure does look familiar!
 
#9 ·
i have a theory about the false blown head gasket may be it is wrong. i have read this sentence exhaust gases in the coolant system specially with v8 range rover engines and when i start to think about how the coolant shall meet the exhaust i found the answer is through a tiny hole in the head gasket (depends on the engine cylinders and header design) and if it happened the coolant circulating in a closed pressurized system and the exhaust is a stream of gas flow which only shall be pressurized if it is trapped or sealed but that is not occur here the gases will find its way through the exhaust valve then to the exhaust manifold then the tail pipe will show the steam or at least vapor. also if the blown portion of the head gasket at the top of the cylinder(end of stroke) open to the coolant the suction of coolant through the cylinder effect more than the exhaust gases go through the tiny hole to the coolant as it still has the clear way through the open exhaust valve.

coolant in oil or oil in coolant they can mix through the leaking LIM

may be i am wrong but i would try to use every trick and apply all the gained knowledge before i remove the well done GM head gasket.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Believe me, I tried to rationalize the same thing as you because I really didn't want to go as far as replacing the head gasket but let's not forget that not only did mechanics who do this for a living said it was the head gasket but that exhaust gases also don't go though the intake manifold. Well, they do but only through the EGR system in a much smaller amount and that valve is closed at idle whereas when they had the car finally running in the shop the coolant reservoir with the cap removed had not only sound like a tailpipe in a puddle but you could easily smell fuel. Another thing to keep in mind is that Dex-Cool is already red in color so the change to brown isn't as much of a stretch as it is for green coolant. I added perhaps a gallon to the system and if the coolant already in the system was green I'm not sure how long it would have taken to react. This is all speculation because not only have I had a coolant tester still in its packaging that I bought way before I ever got this car but I also never bothered to check the color BEFORE adding any coolant. Silly me.

The more I think about it the more I think it is the head gasket because the pressure difference between the cooling system and the exhaust depends on operating temperature. With a cool engine the coolant isn't pressurized at all much like when my engine was idling especially with the cap off. Put the cap on and warm up the engine and then it's a whole nother story. There was a loss of power the last time when the engine warmed up enough on the interstate before the coolant began spraying into the cylinder(s) which at least was mostly burned and discarded through the exhaust I hope. Yes, a LIM gasket leak can cause a loss of power too but it would only suck coolant from the reservoir whereas right now it's the opposite. Either way, I already have all of the gaskets and o-rings along with the proper revised torque requirements so I'm almost ready to rock and roll.
 
#10 ·
Those websites will do anything to convince you to pay the $15 per year to remove all ads. :mad:

I've made decent progress but I didn't expect to have to fiddle with my tools and remove components in a logical order not detailed in the book I just bought. Putting it back together should be much quicker. I didn't realize that the Chilton expected me to use an engine lift to remove a motor mount but I managed to remove the power steering pump by just removing the one motor mount bolt blocking the bottom bolt for the PS pump. I'm halfway done removing the exhaust and so far the only broken stud is for where the front manifold meets the Y-pipe but one stud did stay in the head while the nut came right off. The good thing is the broken stud is the top one and that's good because it's the easiest one to reach.

You should notice that the coolant passages on the front (aka left) side of the intake had been gunked up. This worries me a little because uneven cooling could have been the cause of the head gasket popping and could have warped the heads just enough for them to need to be resurfaced or even possibly replaced. I'm hopeful that flow didn't stop completely or not until I had tried to fill up the reservoir but my best guess is that the thermostat was stuck closed and the clog in the intake is the result of the head gasket blowing first. I may have taken pictures of how nasty the coolant reservoir cap looked before I cleaned it last week. The overheating only happened the one time 2 days after the coolant fill up and oil change and only for a short amount of time but I know it doesn't have to take long before the damage is done and based on other people's experiences I should have it easier anyway thanks to there being no coolant in the perhaps half quart overfilled oil pan.



 
#12 ·
wish you good luck and take care of the cooling system i have doubt about its efficiency from the pics it seems to be a lot of debris inside the pipes and there is possibility that the radiator is partially clogged even with genuine coolant. better to check the flow or save the labor cost and invest in new one i changed mine with wider fins than the OEM which was very small compared with the aftermarket also these upper and lower radiator hoses they are armored internally with a corroded mesh if you or the old owner squeezed it that material shall mix with the coolant and clog the radiator (happened with me) as from the pic that pipe looks stretched mine was like balloon.
don't forget to inspect the water pump or ask the past owner if he replaced it recently. take care of the push rods arrangement its tricky and the information on the net is confusing!!
 
#13 · (Edited)
Unless Carfax me tells what I need to know there's no way I could find the previous owner(s). It's safe to say that the cooling system has never been touched and the sticker claiming that it was good for 150,000 probably didn't help. When I have more cash available I'd replace the water pump, radiator, and all hoses but right now I'm limited on what I can do. It also doesn't help that I live in an apartment and cannot use a water hose but I ain't running any pressurized water through it this weekend because I'd be more likely to remove deposits that may be keeping it working. I might pour some water though the block but when it comes to flushing the cooling system that'll wait until after I install a Prestone T and I'm more prepared for any leaks or a failed corroded water pump.
 
#14 · (Edited)
Off with their heads, lol!

It's been back breaking work breaking bolts but it beats blowing big bucks on labor. It would appear that the clog at the front (left) side inside the intake manifold eventually did cause the head gasket to start deteriorating in that same area. I haven't found out exactly which holes are which but I assume I found where the coolant made its way to an exhaust hole just above where the coolant pitted the head. I used epoxy to fill in the misshaped crater and once that's sanded down the install can begin. I haven't had a chance yet to study all of the pictures or the old gaskets themselves but I'm expecting to find that there had been a LIM gasket leak too.

I opted against removing the rear (right) exhaust manifold from the exhaust pipe and I did manage to get that EGR tube off but I need to get some anti-seize and also clean the the threads. Hopefully I didn't try too hard to clean the heads and the block but at this point in my life I have to basically MacGyver everything I don't exactly have to do things perfectly. I happen to have a lot of odds and ends but only so much super fine sandpaper to work out my scratches.







 
#15 · (Edited)
I only had to forego sleep and work for over 17 hours through the night to finally get it finished. I'm not sure why this 6-7 job turned into a 30+ hour job other than having to fight everything and find the best way to get at certain bolts. I was already moving slow to be certain I wasn't making any mistakes but dang. That's what I get for trying to follow the instructions in the only book available at Rockauto. For instance the Chilton says to install the rockers but fails to mention that you need the lower intake gasket in place before you do that. It never fails after I install a part that I have to remove it like the lower intake but at least I had a chance to redo and ensure that the RTV was covering enough.

After getting more rough sandpaper I had just enough to give every gasket area a very good cleaning. It's too bad the head gasket kit didn't come with an O-ring for the water tube to the heater core leaving the thermostat housing. No one said anything about needing a lifter spring compressor so I didn't get to use the new valve stems seals. I didn't feel like adding more time to the job so I never bothered pulling off the fuel rail and changing out the O-rings for the injectors. I had temporarily misplaced the gasket for the throttle body but the old one was okay.

What really made the job take longer was having to ride my bicycle out a 2nd time yesterday after having already bought parts earlier because one of the dowel for the heads just vanished. My only choice was to buy some 1/2 copper tubing and MacGyver a new one. It wasn't until that 2nd trip I finally bought a sanding block but I still wound up sitting there sanding for a long time. There were several times I wanted to give up and go to bed because of mysterious connectors and hoses but as I plugged along I managed to figure it all out despite the lack of mental power.

The only issue now is a sticky lifter. I read somewhere about prelubing the pushrods but I couldn't find any details on that so all I could figure was to dip them in oil before putting them in. It'll probably work itself out especially after I change the oil and add something extra. I still need to burp the cooling system but seeing that I'm going to flush it out a few times it's fine for short trips and I was too exhausted to finish the little things. The CEL for the misfire isn't always on and for the most part it sounds like normal. I just have to give it gas when I crank it and make sure it doesn't die right away. I wonder if I have any hoses or vacuum lines backwards especially the EVR or DPFE sensor under the coil packs.

Before I do anything else to the car I need to clean the mess I made in the apartment.
 
#16 ·
Another day another update:

I don't know what to think about this issue sometimes. It's fairly random and ranges in severity. There's been a few times without a CEL or noticeable problem but on the last trip the CEL would flash when idling and become solid when revved. Now I also wonder if that slightly lower pitched bubbly Jetson car sound the car sometimes had before the gasket blowout may have been a clue that the lifter having already been sticking but only until I got her on the main road.

I wish KOKO 3X would reveal my codes but a neighbor told me to stop by his shop before school and he'd check the codes and compression.

Yesterday I had another shop be the one to tell me that cylinder 6 was misfiring and that it was a dead cylinder. They disabled spark and ascertained that it was a stuck lifter. They also told me that a good way to be certain would to remove the valve/rocker arm cover and have a friend crank the engine while I look for any movement. Taking the valve cover off is easy but finding a person to rev the engine is another story.
 
#17 ·
i think it is required to check the push rods again as they ain't arranged alternatively exhaust-intake-exhaust... the middle cylinders like 2&4 you will find exhaust-exhaust or vise versa as i remember and my advice don't adjust the lifter in that way; manual cranking with help from another hand better to keep lifter as they were when stopped moving where the crank shaft was exactly and rocker arms also don't touch them just arrange the push rods correctly in there past location before taking them out.more doubt more mess just return the situation to exactly as it was every thing shall be ok.
 
#18 ·
A job well done!



I made sure not to mix them up and each one went back exactly where they came from. If 2 had been swapped I would assume 2 cylinders would be misfiring not just the one. I did take pictures of the steps I took to finish cleaning the surfaces and installing each major part but I wasn't sure if anyone cared to see those. I did refer back to the pictures to ensure I didn't drop that missing dowel into a cylinder before putting the heads back on. Then again I would've heard something when I cranked her up had it fell in anywhere but into the oil pan.

Doesn't matter anyway because finally after taking her to work and driving about 100 miles the CEL not only vanished but the stumble is gone!!! The engine shakes a bit while idling in drive but that's because the motor mount isn't torqued down enough or it's as bad as it appeared to be. She had never always started on the first try but I've been assuming that I have a slightly bad starter anyway. It's never a great idea to trust the fuel gauge and its slosh module but if it's correct I'm already seeing an increase in mileage. I was getting 26 mpg before so maybe not.

In Park or Neutral she's so quiet if it wasn't for the tachometer or accelerator I would think she wasn't running. :grin:
 
#19 · (Edited)
good news i was concerned about cranking the engine manually to reinsert push rods or lifter or any moving part in the engine also swapping the push rods could happen in the same cylinder the longer would broken or break the rocker arm's seat with the first start of the engine isolating the cylinder the same as valves stuck closed really i was worry about that scenario and that is very good you resolved before disassembling the engine again thinking and reviewing before action is great advantage!!
 
#20 ·
If you have the ability to do it safely, try making a short video (30 seconds or so) of the engine start, putting in D, and going through a few gears at normal throttle.

Glad to hear it's running a lot better. That's always a relief!
 
#21 ·
When you say normal throttle does that mean keeping the foot off the pedal or giving it some gas?

Okay, I need to stop counting my chickens before they hatch because while the car is running great most of the time it still isn't perfect and the CEL does come on even if not nearly as often. It doesn't help that it still has the oil that it received just days before the gaskets popped and it's just what I had handy before getting rid of the last car which wasn't 5w-30. I'm sure some fresh oil and Marvel's Mystery Oil would help.
 
#22 ·
By normal throttle I mean driving it like a normal person, not jamming it to the firewall.

I've never used MMO so I can't say anything about it, good or bad. I just ordered the 12-ounce Prolong oil treatment. A buddy of mine who I respect a great deal has used it for decades and says it has saved him at least twice. What the heck, it can't hurt, eh?
 
#23 · (Edited)
I thought about recording that video but during today's rehearsal it was an expected experience. My trip directly to work meant jumping onto the highway right away and while there was certainly some lifter noise in the beginning it was gone before I got to Eastland and I never saw a CEL today. Driving and idling more though Cisco on the other hand like the last few times to get to Abilene and the last time driving around Abilene could have been the reason I saw a CEL.

It blew my mind to look at the oil can (jug) and notice that I did use 5w-30. Then it came to mind I happened to buy oil at Walmart on the one day they were out of 10w-30 back when I was buying oil for the Cougar. Funny how that worked out considering that I never got around to using it for the Cougar before it was gone.

The plan now is to get some Seafoam and use some not only in the oil but through the intake as well. Considering that I found a good amount of oil inside the upper intake during the gasket changing, everything could use a good cleaning. I've used many different additives and cleaners over my lifetime and each has their own role. Next, I want to try using 2 in 1 oil (in the fuel of course).

Prolong is good and I may start using it again like I used to do but MMO better targets what's in the top half of the engine and that's what I need this time. Now that I know where to check and add tranny fluid I should consider adding some Lucas Transmission Fix.
 
#25 ·
2 Steps Forward and One Step Back Once Again.

Well, Photobucket is pretty much useless and they know it. I probably need to shoot another video and upload it to YouTube because once again it feels like I've taken a step back after taking 2 steps forward.

Did I ever mention the oil leak? While I thought I noticed an oil leak or build up of sludge on the passenger sub-frame rail during the oil change before the engine imploded I'm pretty sure the leak I'm worried about now was caused by my repair work. It's a very slow leak and takes days before it starts leaving a drop here and there after cleaning the engine. It appears to be coming from the valley where the RTV is but with the power steering pump in place it's hard to be 100% certain. For all I know it's from the knock sensor or whatever sensor is right there on top but I'm betting I didn't use enough RTV even though I used more than what was said in the directions. It ended up being less than what had been used before and there was a lot.









And look, here's a crack in the upper air intake plenum. After looking back at older pictures it's obvious that this has been a work in progress before I got the car. What I'd like to do now is find a nicer looking plenum and then take another crack at installing the lower intake manifold. (pun completely unintentional).

The CEL was predictable until today. What made the CEL appear had always been at least 2 minutes of idling and it always came in flashing. It would of course stop flashing after you start moving and would completely go away after at least 3 run cycles. There aren't many traffic lights in the area I work but Abilene is a different story. Today, I changed the oil and used a bottle of MMO after SeaFoaming the engine and the CEL has not wanted to go away.

Actually, SeaFoaming the old oil helped a ton and amazingly made the car stop shaking when idling in drive for those 70 miles during work Saturday night. It wasn't until after I ran the rest of the SeaFoam through the intake and changed the oil that now the car still shakes a little and the CEL is being more annoying. The engine could be making less noise with the MMO and new oil than it did with the SeaFoam and old oil because there had been considerable lifter noise the moment I left the area instead of fumigating the whole block after SeaFoaming the intake. The noise has always gone away within moments but like I said before the engine still shakes even in park but then it's only obvious when you have your ears and nose near the tailpipe. I can smell the unburnt fuel which almost had smelled like my rings were burning when it was just old(ish) oil in the pan.

Now, I almost wish I had changed the oil and used more SeaFoam in the oil instead of MMO but then I'd have to change the oil again fairly soon and it's worth allowing the MMO to work its magic over time. I'd like to wait at least another 500-1000 miles and hopefully find some Motor Flush before the next oil change. Depending on if the CEL codes had changed I may rethink this. By the way, up to this point the CEL codes has always been a 300 and 306 meaning that there was a random misfire in cylinder 6.
 
#26 ·
why this misfire code 306? is it recent after the last repair? perhaps it is old and appeared after using the car may be clogged injector, bad ignition and for engine shaking it could be because of that crack in the upper air intake manifold. air/vacuum leaks can cause unexpected symptoms.
 
#28 ·
i have used atf oil to flush the v8 engine with good result specially with jamed lifters the noise disappeared i never find this seafoam here, but really the atf oil penetrates very well through the tiny passes also i have noticed that with oil leaks there is a noise engine. i had noise v8 engine sound metalic noise i think this because of the less oil pressure as the engine calmed down after curing the leaks.
 
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