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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've got an '09, 4 cyl; after the car is fully warmed up it has an intermitent rough idle after coming to a stop. It will do it with the AC on or off, hot weather, cold weather, etc. I've had in the shop twice and of course they can't find a problem; no error codes are thrown, and when the car is driven they don't experinance the problem. Anyone have any ideas what the issue may be? Even my 10 year old asks what the problem with the car is.

Thanks!

Pete
 

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It sounds like your MAF sensor may be going bad. I've seen it more than once that they check fine and don't throw a code. Just my .02
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Mine does the same every once in a while, but of course when I go to the dealer to get it serviced the problem magically disappears.
Yeah, go figure, mine too. I've got an appointment this morning but of course it ran fine yesterday. I figure as long as I have the complaint documented several times I'll be go once my warranty is up. I only have 1,900 miles left.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
It sounds like your MAF sensor may be going bad. I've seen it more than once that they check fine and don't throw a code. Just my .02
Sounds like a good guess too me. I was thinking perhaps a vacuum leak, or a spark plug wire going bad. But the odd think is once the gas pedal is applied it runs fine. Idle curcuit? Beats me.
 

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(Not directed at any one poster...just my experience. Does not apply if you have cop ignition system).

More than once I've seen a bad spark plug wire cause misfiring that falls below the level of setting a misfire code or only throws one intermittently. Particularly look at the wires on the firewall side where they are hard to reach or even see. If one rubs up against the exhaust manifold (or most anything else) the insulation can be compromised leading to a high resistance wire that appears just fine visually (heat can cause cracking of the outer cover that can be very hard to see) & only by testing it's resistance end-to-end can you tell it's bad. Good news is you can do a resistance check with the wires installed pretty quickly. Hope this saves somebody from going through the pain I went through. Because it's so easy to test it's really the first thing to check IMHO.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/spark_plug_wires.htm
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks greenman, I'm taking the car in, again, this coming Wednesday. I'll ask them to specifically look at spark plug wire routing.

I've also had a "Service ESC" message that flashed. It didn't throw an error code, but I just happened to see the message.
 

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It is indeed the coil-on-plug (COP) ignition system on the 2.4L. Mention the SERVICE ESC message and other details associated with that event but try not to tell them what to check. Some of them don't appreciate people walking off the street telling them how to do their job.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
It is indeed the coil-on-plug (COP) ignition system on the 2.4L. Mention the SERVICE ESC message and other details associated with that event but try not to tell them what to check. Some of them don't appreciate people walking off the street telling them how to do their job.
Well I look at it this way, this will be the third time I've had the car in for this problem and I keep getting the same response, "There was not an error code and the car is operating with in General Motors specifications." So at this point if I make a few suggestions I don't think if will hurt anything.
 

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This is probably a real longshot. But worth keeping in mind if things worsen for you. Even minor corrosion at the BCM connector can cause a multitude of unrelated symptoms. Here's the bulletin:

_____________________________________________________________

#09-06-03-004B: Intermittent No Crank/No Start, No Module Communication, MIL, Warning Lights, Vehicle Messages or DTCs Set by Various Control Modules (Disconnect Affected Connector and Apply Dielectric Lubricant) - (Sep 1, 2009)


Subject: Intermittent No Crank/No Start, No Module Communication, MIL, Warning Lights, Vehicle Messages or DTCs Set by Various Control Modules (Disconnect Affected Connector and Apply Dielectric Lubricant)


Models: 2005-2010 GM Passenger Cars and Trucks (including Saturn)

2005-2010 HUMMER H2, H3

2005-2009 Saab 9-7X




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This bulletin is being revised to update the subject line and Condition information. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 09-06-03-004A (Section 06 - Engine).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Condition
Some customers may comment on any of the following conditions:

• An intermittent no crank/no start

• Intermittent malfunction indicator lamp (MIL) illumination

• Intermittent service lamp illumination

• Intermittent service message(s) being displayed

Cause
This condition may be caused by a buildup of nonconductive insulating oxidized debris known as fretting corrosion, occurring between two electrical contact surfaces. This may be caused by any of the following conditions:

• Vibration

• Thermal cycling

• Poor connection/terminal retention

• Micro motion

• A connector, component or wiring harness not properly secured resulting in movement

On low current signal circuits this condition may cause high resistance, resulting in intermittent connections.

On high current power circuits this condition may cause permanent increases in the resistance and may cause a device to become inoperative.

Representative List of Control Modules
The following is only a representative list of control modules that may be affected by this condition and does not include every possible module for every vehicle.

• Blower Control Module

• Body Control Module (BCM)

• Communication Interface Module (CIM)

• Cooling Fan Control Module

• Electronic Brake Control Module (EBCM)

• Electronic Brake and Traction Control Module (EBTCM)

• Electronic Suspension Control (ESC) Module

• Engine Control Module (ECM)

• Heating, Ventilation and Air Conditioning (HVAC) Control Module

• Inflatable Restraint Sensing and Diagnostic Module (SDM)

• Powertrain Control Module (PCM)

• Remote Control Door Lock Receiver (RCDLR)

• Transmission Control Module (TCM)

Correction
Important: DO NOT replace the control module, wiring or component for the following reasons:

• The condition is intermittent and cannot be duplicated.

• The condition is present and by disconnecting/reconnecting the connector the condition can no longer be duplicated.


Use the following procedure to correct the conditions listed above.

Install a scan tool and perform the Diagnostic System Check - Vehicle. Retrieve and record any existing history or current DTCs from all of the control modules (refer to SI).
⇒ If any DTC(s) are set, refer to Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) List - Vehicle to identify the connector(s) of the control module/component which may be causing the condition (refer to SI).

⇒ If DTCs are not set, refer to Symptoms - Vehicle to identify the connector(s) of the control module/component which may be causing the condition (refer to SI).

When identified, use the appropriate DTC Diagnostics, Symptoms, Schematics, Component Connector End Views and Component Locator documents to locate and disconnect the affected harness connector(s) which are causing the condition.
Note: Fretting corrosion looks like little dark smudges on electrical terminals and appear where the actual electrical contact is being made. In less severe cases it may be unable to be seen or identified without the use of a magnifying glass.





Important: Use ONLY a clean nylon brush that is dedicated to the repair of the conditions in this bulletin.

DO NOT apply an excessive amount of dielectric lubricant to the connectors as hydrolock may result when attempting to mate the connectors.


With a one-inch nylon bristle brush, apply dielectric lubricant to both the module/component side and the harness side of the affected connector(s).
Reconnect the affected connector(s) and wipe away any excess lubricant that may be present.
Attempt to duplicate the condition by using the following information:
- DTC Diagnostic Procedure

- Circuit/System Description

- Conditions for Running the DTC

- Conditions for Setting the DTC

- Diagnostic Aids

- Circuit/System Verification

⇒ If the condition cannot be duplicated, the repair is complete.

⇒ If the condition can be duplicated, then follow the appropriate DTC, Symptom or Circuit/System Testing procedure (refer to SI).

Repair Order Documentation
Important: The following information MUST be documented on the repair order. Failure to do so may result in a chargeback.

• Customer vehicle condition.

• Was a Service Lamp or Service Message illuminated? If yes, specify which Service Lamp or Service Message.

• Was a DTC(s) set? If yes, specify which DTC(s) were set.

• After following the procedure contained within this bulletin, could the condition be duplicated?

⇒ If the condition was not duplicated, then document the affected module/component connector name and number on the repair order.

• If the condition was duplicated after the procedure contained within this bulletin was followed, and additional diagnosis led to the replacement of a module or component, the SI Document ID Number MUST be written on the repair order.
 

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Well I look at it this way, this will be the third time I've had the car in for this problem and I keep getting the same response, "There was not an error code and the car is operating with in General Motors specifications." So at this point if I make a few suggestions I don't think if will hurt anything.
I will give the point of view from the service perspective. When a customer comes in with a complaint such as yours I scan the car to see if there is any codes stored in any module. If there is nothing found there I test drive the car to try to recreate the problem (generally with the customer). Sometimes there are bulletins that help direct in a way to narrow down the problem even though there aren't any codes set to possibly get the problem to reoccur. If it doesn't act up it is hard to diagnose.

As for the idle issue my car does the same thing. Although, I finally have been throwing codes enough to the point were I will be able to diagnose the problem. My car throws P1174 for cylinder power balance which, in my case, is most likely the injectors. My car does it at stop lights, but never at idle in park for some reason.

The service esc seems to be something that happens on a lot of cars and trucks for some reason. The best thing to do if they can't find any codes is be as descriptive as possible as to how you were driving at that point, weather, braking, accelerating, etc. This makes recreating the problem a lot easier.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Got the car back last night. The Service ESC issue was linked to the #1 FI. Per the receipt; " P0300 engine misfire detected. Misfire on cylinder #1. Tested Spark, OK. Performed injector balance test with active tester. Injector failed flow test. Replace #1 injector.

I suspect that was the source of the the rough idle. So far so good.

I also got a new A/C Heater blower motor out of the trip too. It's made a high pitched whine for a quite a while.

Hopefully this ends the issues for a while.

When I hit two years with this car in April I'll post up all of the warranty work that's been done. So far this car is not too good, lots of nickle and dime problems.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Went back in the shop last Monday. The valve guides for cylinder number one are worn out. Leakdown test was at 80%. The dealership is installing a new head. All work is covered under the extended warranty. The car is due back tomorrow.
 

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Hellgate,

Thank you for the update about your vehicle. I look forward to reading your post about the vehicle once you get it back.

In the future, don’t hesitate to contact myself or Laura for further assistance.

Michelle P., Chevrolet Customer
 

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As for the idle issue my car does the same thing. Although, I finally have been throwing codes enough to the point were I will be able to diagnose the problem. My car throws P1174 for cylinder power balance which, in my case, is most likely the injectors. My car does it at stop lights, but never at idle in park for some reason.

Did you ever find the source of your problem? Mine does something similar it randomly idles rough when at a stop but calms down in park or neutral. However it will runs a little rough in park first thing in the morning.
 

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i have noticed this same issue. just a slight rough idle. Where could possible vac leaks be? i dont think its a MAF problem but i guess you never know..
 

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i have noticed this same issue. just a slight rough idle. Where could possible vac leaks be? i dont think its a MAF problem but i guess you never know..
Most vacuum leaks you'd see would be between the MAF and the throttle body and would drive the whole system lean. The ECM would try to compensate by adding more fuel which usually ends up tripping a P0171 Fuel Trim Lean Bank 1 code. I'd be more inclined to go with injector flow issue. Could also be carbon tracked spark plug but you'd see that more under load than at idle.
 
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